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29 March 2007 @ 06:37 am
Now I've heard everything  
Update: Having spoken with my husband, the unflatering remarks regarding other spec-fic writers are now deleted. Due to the fact that if he thinks I was an ass, I really was an ass. I sincerely apologize. I was rude.


From a conversation with a person who will not be named here*:

Me: Hugos were announced. Have you noticed how the same people are always nominated for editor? I want to get somebody to nominate Anne next time, she kicks butt.

Person: She won't win. She mostly edits urban fantasy.

Me: What does that have to do with it?

Person: It's crossover romance.

Me: ?

Person: It's not really like SF or pure fantasy. It's a fad. Please don't be offended.

And that's why I don't want to join SFWA. Because the inertia is enormous. Let's see, urban fantasy is selling relatively well and is written, edited and packaged by people who are talented and deserve recognition. It's new. It's shiny. It's speculative. Shouldn't that be exciting?

Yes, the field is flooded. Yes, there are a lot of knock-offs. Give it a couple of years, and talented people will emerge while the rest will be washed away. As Charlie is fond of saying, "There is always room for excellence." And what is this with using romance as some sort of trash indicator?**

Why is it that speculative genre, a genre for people with an open mind, a genre that stretches the horizons and does away with the established boundaries, why does it spawn such elitist, short-sighted attitude in its fans and in many authors? Why the hell is it so cliquish?

I now know how the erotica writers felt when they were fighting to get themselves recognized as part of Romance genre by the professional community. Let me say something for all those people who stand there and proclaim that romance novels are trash: write one. Let's see how well you do.

Let's compare a good romance and a good hard sci-fi.

It's hard to write a good romance. It takes understanding of the way human relationships work, it takes a feel for setting, on spot characterization and pacing. If all those things are right, the audience will be forgiving if the author slips in the area of historical accuracy.

It's hard to write a good hard sci-fi. It takes technical knowledge and forward thinking mind, but if the concept is good, the audience will, on average, be more forgiving if the writer fails on characterization, pacing, and plain decent writing.

How is one less than the other? They are simply different books. Books are hard to write. Please respect the writers. We work hard, no matter the genre. Nobody likes being snubbed by their peers.

___________________________
* I had clicked off the Im window, because I was pissy, so the conversation is reproduced from memory, but I remember the last line quite well.
**For the record, my books are not romance, but I'm going to talk about it anyway.
 
 
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Jodi Meadows[info]jmeadows on March 29th, 2007 11:08 am (UTC)
*shakes fist* SFWA doesn't seem very...encouraging. And really, it's so easy to get beaten down from every other direction. Why sign up for one more when you know ahead of time they don't want you anyway?

*shrug*

I happen to enjoy most of the urban fantasy I've read, and I'm really looking forward to reading yours.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 29th, 2007 11:10 am (UTC)
Thanks, and I shake my fist with you

:shakes:
inkstone: gothic lolita[info]magicnoire on March 29th, 2007 11:21 am (UTC)
Why is it that speculative genre, a genre for people with an open mind, a genre that stretches the horizons and does away with the established boundaries, why does it spawn such elitist, short-sighted attitude in its fans and in many authors?

Because it's a genre that gets beaten down and looked down upon from other quarters (read: other genres/literary) so to make themselves feel better, they trash another genre.

It's like a ladder:
Literary --> SF/F --> Romance

I mean, think of all the reviews about Neil Gaiman's books that start off with: "Neil Gaiman writes such wonderful books. It's such a shame he get pigeonholed in the fantasy genre because he's so much better than that."

So in short: The literary establishment snubs SF/F and in turn, the SF/F establishment snubs romance. It's a vicious cycle and is really quite stupid.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 29th, 2007 11:25 am (UTC)
And romance outsells literary and SF/F combined. If no more romance books were published, a whole lot of people would be unhappy. And as huge as Romance genre is, to really shine in it, you have to be one hell of a writer.

It makes me pissy! Pissy I tell you!
(no subject) - [info]magicnoire on March 29th, 2007 11:37 am (UTC) Expand
Hannah Wolf Bowen[info]buymeaclue on March 29th, 2007 11:38 am (UTC)
>Person: It's not really like SF or pure fantasy. It's a fad. Please don't be offended.

A thirty-plus-year-old fad?

I think [info]magicnoire is pretty much spot-on re: this:

>Why the hell is it so cliquish?

But I'd take it one step further. The sf/f genre has a not insignificant number of professional victims, and an even less significant number of people who were bullied and/or excluded in school. Now that they've found their people and a place where they fit in and get listened to, they can be inclined to bully and exclude right back.

I used to get much more riled up about it than I usually do these days (though I'm currently going ten rounds with someone re: literary sf, so y'know). Then I figured, what do I care? Their own problem if they're going to miss out on good books via the snub.

Still a bit frustrating, though.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 12:03 am (UTC)
It is quite frustrating.
ebenstone[info]ebenstone on March 29th, 2007 12:38 pm (UTC)
It's fascinating how fracticious writers can be. Terry Goodkind "doesn't write fantasy" (Sorry I had to include a shot at Goodkind, it's a Westeros thing I guess!) and author's cringe at being called genre writers. I don't get it!

I was recently at an Advanced Placement training session where LOTR was brought up and the instructor said while it is a "classic" it was still "fantasy." And he said it with all the typical scorn. I found it annoying. Writing is writing and I try to wedge in as much "genre" as I can in my class.

I've confessed to friends I AM NOT WRITING LITERATURE. I have no illusions that in 20 years no one will be teaching my books in class. But I do have delusions that there will be entire message boards dedicated to my novel series.

Writing is writing. It doesn't matter.

Well there's my 10 cents.
kit[info]mizkit on March 30th, 2007 07:58 am (UTC)
Terry Goodkind "doesn't write fantasy"

He doesn't? (I'm not being a smartass. I assume he says he doesn't write fantasy, for some reason. I just never knew that.) What does he write, then?
(no subject) - [info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 10:24 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]mizkit on March 30th, 2007 10:57 am (UTC) Expand
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Livia Llewellyn: Bitch Please[info]livia_llewellyn on March 29th, 2007 12:45 pm (UTC)
When did urban fantasy become a subset of paranormal romance? Urban environment + fantasy = urban fantasy. I don't see romance being a neccesary part of that equation.

I'd really like someone to explain to me how something like Perdido Street Station or City of Saints and Madmen are "crossover romance". lol
Gwenda Bond[info]bondgwendabond on March 29th, 2007 04:19 pm (UTC)
Exactly!
Hannah Wolf Bowen[info]buymeaclue on March 29th, 2007 07:37 pm (UTC)
Maybe they didn't get any further than the title of "Dradin, In Love?"
(no subject) - [info]livia_llewellyn on March 29th, 2007 07:50 pm (UTC) Expand
james_nicoll[info]james_nicoll on March 29th, 2007 01:19 pm (UTC)
How is what Nora Roberts writes somehow less than Harry Turtledove chewing the cud of every single war in the last couple of centuries until multi-book series falls out of his mouth?***

Now, that's unfair: Turtledove tends to stick to wars that people who watch the History channel are likely to have heard of: The American Civil War, World War One and World War Two. Well, maybe some Greek on Persian action, too, in the shorter lengths. The exotica (like his I Can't Believe It's Not the Byzantine Empire series and the actual Byzantine Now With Added Not-Failingism series) seem to have been dropped by the wayside.

Wars like the Seven Years War, which set the stage for the next quarter millennium, almost never get a mention. Big stuff that doesn't involve whites, like the Taiping Rebellion (The second bloodiest conflict in history), I can't recall being used at all.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 29th, 2007 01:31 pm (UTC)
I own most of what he wrote.
:(

I really like some of his earlier works. I love Thessalonika. I really enjoyed Marching Through Peachtree, etc series (it's the only title I remember, but I have the whole sequence). I did my best to read World at War (Darkness here, darkness there) series, and I own 4 of those. I have Videssos too, although I could never quite get into it. I like the Case of Toxic Spelldump.

But his WWII and WWI just keep going on and on and on, and he keeps repeating himself.

There are so many interesting wars. So much material. You're right - he does stick to the History Channel audience, but I wish he wouldn't.


(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll on March 29th, 2007 01:49 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]ilona_andrews on March 29th, 2007 01:53 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll on March 29th, 2007 02:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Flewellyn[info]flewellyn on March 29th, 2007 01:55 pm (UTC)
Why is it that speculative genre, a genre for people with an open mind, a genre that stretches the horizons and does away with the established boundaries, why does it spawn such elitist, short-sighted attitude in its fans and in many authors? Why the hell is it so cliquish?

I can't answer definitively, but I think it's because of how badly sci-fi and fantasy fared, until recently, in the popular media. The science-fiction magazines of the 30s and 40s have all but vanished, and for a long time sci-fi was basically the literary equivalent of the crazy uncle in the attic. It's only relatively recently that this has changed, and it's still slow going.

What with that perception, I think the sci-fi community reacted like any community that comes under attack: they pulled inward and got defensive and conservative.

Plus, I think another part of it is that a lot of urban fantasy is written by women, and a lot of the SFWA leadership is rather misogynist.
Rae Carson Finlay[info]raecarson on March 29th, 2007 02:02 pm (UTC)
Yanno, it's hilarious because romance is all over the sff genre. Bujold basically writes Regency With Rayguns. Others write romance with homosexuals! (ooo, daring), or with a ship! Buggirl! Dragonsmut! The boy-meets-girl romance often falls completely flat, because without a twisty spec element, the relationship just doesn't zing. But sometimes not.

It's just another skill set.

ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 12:04 am (UTC)
"Yanno, it's hilarious because romance is all over the sff genre. Bujold basically writes Regency With Rayguns."

What you said.
The Pea[info]mekkavandexter on March 29th, 2007 02:10 pm (UTC)
it might be a fad, but LKH has been pimping Anita books for 10 years. So, my answer to that person is "whatevah".

i mean, really. My fads could last so long!
Hannah Wolf Bowen[info]buymeaclue on March 29th, 2007 07:39 pm (UTC)
>it might be a fad, but LKH has been pimping Anita books for 10 years.

War for the Oaks! Little, Big!
(no subject) - [info]mekkavandexter on March 29th, 2007 08:36 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]buymeaclue on March 30th, 2007 04:45 pm (UTC) Expand
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makoiyi[info]makoiyi on March 29th, 2007 02:47 pm (UTC)
Can I just say that I love writing genre fiction. LOVE IT, LOVE IT, LOVE IT. I admit, at one point in my life I would redden with embarrassment that his is what I wrote, but that (really) was the quality of the writing I was hiding, not the content.

It is the only genre where I can truly expand my wings. I find others too stultifying and 'set' in its ways. Of course there are exceptions - take Dorothy Dunnett, but I have very few literary or mystery or historical books on my shelves. Yes, I have read them, literary that is, and I can admire from a distance, but they don't touch me like science fiction and fantasy does.

When I look through the local dvd store for something to watch, I gravitate to sci fi and fantasy also, why? Another re-make of the war in so and so? Another muder mystery? Sci fi is different goddamnit! And in this world where all folk seem to care about is the acquisition of 'things' I would far rather lose myself in some make-believe world than in reality.

Does that make the mad person in the attic? I don't think so. My feet are very firmly on the ground. Now, which ground is another matter.
resa[info]spaceoperadiva on March 29th, 2007 02:49 pm (UTC)
SFWA is, was, and from what I can tell, always will be the Good Ol' Boys Club for Nerd Boys. I was a Nerd Boy in a girl body growing up so on a gut level I understand this tribalism but my grown-up self rejects it. There's a bunch of whining about how "Hard" SF is a dying art and the Good Ol' Boys blame everything from the school systems to lady authors putting girl cooties (romance) into their SF/F novels. I think the real reason "Hard" SF looks like it's dying out is because the definition of SF keeps getting shrunk by the Good Ol' Boys to the point that only two Asimov novels, some Kim Stanley Harrison and Greg Bear count as "Hard" SF these days.
resa[info]spaceoperadiva on March 29th, 2007 02:50 pm (UTC)
P.S.-- What's wrong with crossover romance in one's Urban Fantasy anyhoo? :P
(no subject) - [info]james_nicoll on March 29th, 2007 04:31 pm (UTC) Expand
Jam[info]jamiam on March 29th, 2007 04:02 pm (UTC)
Join SFWA? After reading through that conversation, I want to DESTROY the SFWA. Seriously sk me what I think science fiction is. (A fad) Or hard SF. (SUCH a fad. And a dying-out one at that.) Or novels, full stop. (Also a fad.) (No, really.)

Romance is eternal, though its incarnations may shift.

Hey, what's your e-mail? I think I have a secrit message for you.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 29th, 2007 04:06 pm (UTC)
Ilona at ilonaland dot com
Huntress[info]preyforhuntress on March 29th, 2007 06:02 pm (UTC)
Oh this so pisses me off. Would you mind if I copied your conversation over to [info]urbanfantasyfan? I would love to get everyone who's a member over there involved in this discussion.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 29th, 2007 06:36 pm (UTC)
Please feel free :)
Jeaniene Frost[info]frost_light on March 29th, 2007 08:09 pm (UTC)
"It's not really like SF or pure fantasy. It's a fad."

Oh fuck you, whoever you are, Person! And that's from someone who's written a novel that's cross-straddling romance and Urban Fantasy. I hope people judge my book based on writing, plot, and characters. Not whether they think the genre is schlock to begin with. I love that UF encompasses such a wide range of novel types! It ranges from light and romantic to dark and horror-ish. It's FLEXIBLE. Since when did that become inferior??
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 12:06 am (UTC)
I don't know. But I'm with you on fucking.
(no subject) - [info]frost_light on March 30th, 2007 01:44 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 10:21 am (UTC) Expand
[info]jordansummers1 on March 29th, 2007 09:52 pm (UTC)
***Plus, I think another part of it is that a lot of urban fantasy is written by women, and a lot of the SFWA leadership is rather misogynist.***

This is an interesting point, particularly since the majority of romance writers are women, too. I mean I realize that romance makes up 65% of all fiction sales, but please give it a rest.
I wonder if that's why their knickers are in a twist about urban fantasy. Maybe they're worried that the women writers will snatch up all the sales. *ggg*


Like you, I've hesitated in joining SFWA because it doesn't seem very welcoming. The scope of what they consider acceptable is narrow, which is interesting because I would think that they'd like the fresh blood. I've already experienced enough sh*t with RWA. I don't want to go through that or worse at SFWA. It seems that no matter what I choose to write it always ends up on the wrong end of the stick. I think it's time for us 'poor red-headed step-children' to ban together. :)

As for paranormal romance and urban fantasy being the same thing, all that tells me is that the person who said that has NEVER read a paranormal romance. (shaking head)
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 12:10 am (UTC)
:shakes head:

I can take being dismissed by people who don't write, but you'd think other writers that know how much work it takes would welcome new people. But some of them don't.
(no subject) - [info]jordansummers1 on March 30th, 2007 12:14 am (UTC) Expand
Teresa Nielsen Hayden[info]tnh on March 30th, 2007 02:59 pm (UTC)
1. You're not going to convince a lot of SFWAns of your argument when you're sneering at Harry Turtledove, Jim Baen, and Robert Jordan.

2. Romance and SF are both hard to write well, but they have different rules and different concerns. There are good romance novels with SF/fantasy elements, and good SF/fantasy novels with romance elements, but that's as far it goes. In all the years people have been trying to crossbreed the forms, the only true hybrid I can think of that's been produced is Floating Worlds.
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 04:34 pm (UTC)
Teresa,

First of all, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! You're commenting on my lj. :runs in a circle, being scared: Okay now that I've got that out of the way.

I don't particularly want to convince SFWA of anything at this point. As far as sneering, I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was upset by the conversation and perhaps was a bit more glib than the occasion demanded.

(I was once a fan of all authors listed. I am still a fan of Harry Turtledove - I buy his books like a dufus. Two shelves full. Even though I can't really get into his latest and haven't been able to for a couple of years. I just wish he would write something... new. I feel like a lot of his books have had such similar themes and layouts that they are blending in my head.)

The point I was trying to make - and apparently didn't make well enough - is that every genre has writers who rely on established formulas. Using the fact that romance writers do it to quantify their writings as trash when compared to spec fic is, in my opinion, wrong. Being dismissed because of what I write, not how I write is wrong.

(no subject) - [info]ilona_andrews on March 30th, 2007 05:05 pm (UTC) Expand
(Anonymous) on March 30th, 2007 05:09 pm (UTC)
joining SFWA
Well, I'm thinking maybe all those who write urban fantasy and haven't joined yet, should. Get a foot in the door and make a stink from the inside. Erotica writers did it that way. We joined together and the RWA pretty much had to give us our own chapter. And we're one of the biggest now with over 200 members.
(Anonymous) on April 2nd, 2007 04:41 am (UTC)
Well, my dear...
I bought your book and absolutely loved it. Though I am mostly a romance reader, recently I've started to buy more sci-fi and horror because they are taking more risks, pushing the envelope and I like that. Authors like Patricia Briggs, Charlaine Harris, Kim Harrison, Carrie Vaughn, Karen Chance and now YOU, have opened the door for the ravenous romance reader to stroll into other genres...and my dear, we are ravenous readers with a capital R, meaning we buy books by the dozens...so if sci-fi doesn't want us as readers because we do like when the author gives us a hint of romance, then they can go and take a leap. I liked the developing relationship between Curran and Kate - though I'm not sure if he's going to hug her or kill her. Wait a minute, I had that kind of relationship with the ex...

I loved your book. It flowed beautifully. I read it in one sitting. You have a winner, congratulations!
ilona_andrews[info]ilona_andrews on April 2nd, 2007 10:23 am (UTC)
Re: Well, my dear...
Wow.

I'm so flattered, I'm speechless.

Thank you so much and I'm so, so very glad that you've enjoyed the book. I will try my best not to disappoint in the future.

:is happy beyond belief:
[info]phoenyx_13 on April 2nd, 2007 12:51 pm (UTC)
Urban fantasy is NEW?
DeLint, Anderson and many others would beg to differ. For the most part, fantasy has historically been defined by quest fiction like LOTR. The contemporary urban settings have not been written until recently.

I think you should join SFWA if you are eligible and speak for the urban fantasy writers and readers who are interested in this genre.